Thread: San Francisco Symphony on Strike

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Post by Lochiel March 22, 2013 (51 of 80)
Polly Nomial said:

I see what you mean but I'm rather hoping we can concentrate on the purely* musical aspects of things rather than a race-to-the-bottom/politics-of-envy style debate on how pay should(n't) be structured in a society.

*: so much as anything can be "purely" anything these days!

I don't see this as a "race to the bottom" kind of discussion; it's simply an analysis by some of the symphony's rationale behind the strike.

My M.A. is in U.S. history; when one thinks of strikes, one usually thinks of lower-pay workers (perhaps on assembly lines or in manufacturing plants or in service industries) attempting to level the playing field against management folks who are compensated at 10x to 15x what the strikers typically earn.

Granted, San Fran IS an expensive place to live (relatively speaking), but folks who wear tuxedoes to work (just like those who wear shoulder pads & helmets or cleats & baseball caps) just don't come across to ordinary people as being in self-evidently dire economic straights. They come across as slightly self-righteous and arrogant, and perhaps a little greedy. In short, the public has little sympathy, just as it has had none when Major League Baseball and the NFL Players Association have staged strikes. Both sports, particular Major League Baseball, suffered significant, albert short-term public relations repercussions from such walk-outs.

This strike elicits comparable emotions from ordinary classical music listeners. That's all that's being said here.

Post by Polly Nomial March 22, 2013 (52 of 80)
Lochiel said:

My M.A. is in U.S. history; when one thinks of strikes, one usually thinks of lower-pay workers (perhaps on assembly lines or in manufacturing plants or in service industries) attempting to level the playing field against management folks who are compensated at 10x to 15x what the strikers typically earn.

Thing is, as MTT is paid his $1.6m+ pa, that's exactly what you're describing albeit for a more niche market than earlier disputes.

Post by Euell Neverno March 22, 2013 (53 of 80)
From a November 27, 2012, article in the Los Angeles Times, million-dollar + conductor compensation based on symphony nonprofit tax reporting for the 201-11 tax year:

Michael Tilson Thomas SFS - $2.41 million
James Levine NY Met - $2.04 million
James Levine Boston Sym. - $1.21 million
Alan Gilbert NY Phil. - $1.56 million
Charles Dutoit Philadelphia Orch. - $1.47 million

Tilson Thomas, who some criticize as more technician than musician, is obviously doing quite well in San Francisco.

While musician compensation and benefits do seem generous, it is a competitive field and the training and practice goes on for many years. Moreover, the cost of housing in the San Francisco Bay Area is very high.

BTW, I am neither a symphony musician nor do I know any personally. Obviously, the SFS has to live within its income and endowments, so that is a practical limitation on its largesse. The financial failures of professional orchestras in the US have often been due to unrealistic assumptions concerning future fund raising.

Post by tream March 22, 2013 (54 of 80)
As a subscriber to the SFS.....I am very disappointed with the strike. Yes, it costs a lot to live in the Bay Area, but the kind of money the average member makes is still well above the mean salary for professionals in the Bay Area. Furthermore, those salaries have gone up in time, and many of the members have been with the Symphony for some time, which means that any home they bought some time ago is worth considerably more now than what they paid for it, which is not true of other locations in the US. It is tougher on the newest additions to the orchestra, of course, but I doubt if those are the ones leading the strike.

Furthermore, the SFS is well supported by the local population. The Symphony averages 4 concerts per week, which are mostly sold out. Recordings made by the Symphony are snapped up by the locals, which allows the orchestra to continue to record and to build a name.

MTT does seem to have a high salary - but he has been here since 95, I think, and the situation has been very stable. If you know the history of the SFS, that hasn't alway been the case. Lots of recordings have been sold, and many awards have been won.

It seems to me that this situation could have been mediated, and that some members of the orchestra might have some unrealistic ideas about life.

Post by Polly Nomial March 22, 2013 (55 of 80)
tream said:
If MTT withdrew his services because he didn't feel he was being adequately compensated would you react in the same way?

Post by tream March 22, 2013 (56 of 80)
Polly Nomial said:

If MTT withdrew his services because he didn't feel he was being adequately compensated would you react in the same way?

Actually, I would. San Francisco has been a great and supportive home for him. I was actually at his debut concert with the SFS back in the early 70's. As he once said to me....that was a long, long time ago! (OK, that was the only time I ever talked to him). But he has had a fantastic opportunity in San Francisco to record, to present innovative programs, to do premieres, to make DVD's, etc. He has even had the chance to perform a bit of his own music.

As just one example of how well he has been treated - during the Mahler project he was scheduled to record a few of the symphonies and delayed them. For example, during (I think it was) the 2006 season the 8th was scheduled - 4 or 5 performances, well-known soloists, etc. - but when the time came to make the recording, it was delayed. The 8th was reprogrammed in a subsequent year - 08, I believe, and this time recorded. Having been at both performances, this was the right artistic decision. MTT was a traffic cop during the first set of performances, and was far more engaged as an interpreter during the second set. Better soloists, too. Not a cheap thing to do.

The 5th was delayed as well, but obviously far less costly to do again than the 8th.

Post by cherrell March 22, 2013 (57 of 80)
Also realize that almost all of these orchestra members teach at Conservatory and play for pretty good money on the side. I know the teachers at Julliard and the SF Conservatory do pretty well.

I think conductors/music directors are over paid for the amount of time they spend with their orchestras. Most of them have two or three 'full time' conducting jobs. If they want to be part time, they should be paid as such. In the past conductors really spent time with their orchestras, they developed a 'sound'. That's something we've basically lost.

Also, way too much management. Some orchestras have as many managers as members. This should be streamlined, as other business' have. The price of soloists is also vastly out of whack. High end soloist cost more than the entire orchestra playing behind them!

Orchestras could also do much more to get themselves out there. Everything they play should be available to the consumer via download. You should be able to walk out of a concert and purchase that nights performance on a flash drive. Other genres do this. Surely an orchestra can do this. I mean they beam the MET all over the world.

I really love orchestras, the music, and really just listening to the sounds they can make. I don't think orchestras will ever die, they could just be a lot healthier and giving us more music instead of strike.

Post by Euell Neverno March 22, 2013 (58 of 80)
tream said:

during (I think it was) the 2006 season the 8th was scheduled - 4 or 5 performances, well-known soloists, etc. - but when the time came to make the recording, it was delayed. The 8th was reprogrammed in a subsequent year - 08, I believe, and this time recorded.

The scuttlebutt I heard was that there was dissatisfaction with the soloists. Heard nothing about sloppy conducting. I cannot comment on the second performance of the Mahler 8, because I was not at that one, but the first performance seemed OK and the soloists did not seem bad - to me.

Post by Euell Neverno March 22, 2013 (59 of 80)
cherrell said:


Orchestras could also do much more to get themselves out there. Everything they play should be available to the consumer via download. You should be able to walk out of a concert and purchase that nights performance on a flash drive. Other genres do this. Surely an orchestra can do this.

Very interesting idea.

Post by tream March 22, 2013 (60 of 80)
Euell Neverno said:

The scuttlebutt I heard was that there was dissatisfaction with the soloists. Heard nothing about sloppy conducting. I cannot comment on the second performance of the Mahler 8, because I was not at that one, but the first performance seemed OK and the soloists did not seem bad - to me.

Sloppy is not a word I used, and would not characterize the first set of performances in that way. I would use the word careful, perhaps, and committed for the second set of performances. There is no doubt that the soloists as recorded are superior to the first set.

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