Thread: A way to improve demand for SACD?

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Post by audioholik May 21, 2009 (61 of 90)
canonical said:

BIS recordings are sold on HDTracks as 88/24bit when they are actually 44.1/24. Scandal.

unbelievable :-(

Post by audioholik May 21, 2009 (62 of 90)
A way to improve demand for SACD?

release more DSD recordings!

Post by bissie May 21, 2009 (63 of 90)
canonical said:

I am sorry - but there are too many inconsistencies.

First - that BIS records at 44.1 kHz and then sells it on SACD. Bizarre. How BIS records should ALWAYS have been published on your discs. Get new machines/software.

Second - that BIS recordings are sold on HDTracks as 88/24bit when they are actually 44.1/24. Scandal. Far worse than the SACD issue.

Third - you say that pirates are a problem, yet you select to release your library as FLAC downloads without any DRM. That's obviously your choice, but it is internally inconsistent, and doesn't make sense if piracy is a problem for you. And once it's out, it's out. You can't pop the genie back into this bottle.


If it was me, I would think it would be wise and prudent to move very quickly to resolve these issues.
I am sure you know what people here want. And I am sure you know they WANT to support you ...

No, I refuse that. I am highly logical and actually honest. There are no inconsistencies.

First - we sell SACD:s that we back up totally from every point of view, and especially the listening experience. I don't care two hoots how a result is being achieved, as long as it is achieved. And we do, which not least this Forum has been writing for years now. We have very few native DSD recordings, and so we must be doing something right in the important parts of the recording process, hall, mics etc - you've seen it before - with the rest.

Second - if that is true, we will do something about it. I can assure you that I have had no previous knowledge of this. I deliver my recordings to a partner in the US, and they disseminate them further. I haven't even been to hd-tracks' homepage. I have never downloaded anything in my life and have no clue how to.

Third - I belong to the group that thinks that once one has bought a product, one has total ownership of that products. DRM cuts into that, and therefore we have opted out of DRM. Normally this would lead to hoorays from the recordbuying public, but not so here. We cannot stop the piracy, and I seriously think that the only thing that can stop it is the attitude shown from normal honest people, once they are informed of what they're doing and what consequences it might, nay, will have. The thieves will always be several steps in front of us. The solution is to inform the thievery away. If that doesn't work, well, the industry will cease to exist - maybe not such a bad thing, since we seem to be tricksters all of us.

Robert

Post by bissie May 21, 2009 (64 of 90)
RWetmore said:

Robert,

I'm sorry I ever brought this up. :(

Well, I am not. It was about time that I be exposed for what I really am - a liar and a cheat.
But best I like to have been able for years to put one over anyone that actually thought they were listening to great music in fabulous sound, when, in reality, they were listening to junk, badly recorded.

My life's aim has been achieved. I have proved how smart I really am. Anyway, it was time to stop this and try to spend the gazillions of dollars that we have earned, passing cheapskate recordings off for the real thing.

Robert

Post by hok007 May 21, 2009 (65 of 90)
It's about time we had a really good old fashioned flame-war around here. You boys are starting to sound like a couple of amc (alt.music.classical) junkies from the days of yore!

FWIW, I don't buy SACDs for any reason other than bragg'n rights. :o

Post by tream May 21, 2009 (66 of 90)
bissie said:

Well, I am not. It was about time that I be exposed for what I really am - a liar and a cheat.
But best I like to have been able for years to put one over anyone that actually thought they were listening to great music in fabulous sound, when, in reality, they were listening to junk, badly recorded.

My life's aim has been achieved. I have proved how smart I really am. Anyway, it was time to stop this and try to spend the gazillions of dollars that we have earned, passing cheapskate recordings off for the real thing.

Robert

Robert, along the way, my thread got hijacked (not in itself an issue, since I am guilty of hijacking threads started by others), but actually, I was hoping you would contribute to the discussion about the idea to use one of the clear superiorities of SACD over RBCD to enhance its marketing position, which is the potential of super long playing times. You are, to my knowledge, the only producer of SACD's to do this, with 3 releases - the Bach organ works, the Haydn piano sonatas, and the Mendelssohn string symphonies - do have I that right?

If there were - pick a number - say 100 super long play SACD only releases from BIS and other labels, mining the back catalogs, would this be something that would help the SACD cause?

Thanks,

Tom

Post by DSD May 21, 2009 (67 of 90)
flyingdutchman said:

Teresa has always been good at that, troll that she is.

I have never been a troll in my life, why do you keep spewing this untruth?

Sam Tellig behaved very despicable in his column, and does everything possible to promote SACDs death.

I am sorry Robert 44.1kHz PCM is low resolution no matter how high the bit rate. Really 88.2kHz is the absolute minimum one should use for SACD. As I have said over and over DSD gives the finest sound quality on SACD. It was a crying shame when you switched from DSD to PCM.

flyingdutchman your defense of a very unpopular reviewer in the eyes of SACD lovers and you defense of low resolution PCM used for SACDs makes you the very definition of an Internet Troll!

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]

Post by hok007 May 21, 2009 (68 of 90)
In the spirit of returning to topic A, I have a suggestion: Include special SACD-only content, above the content that's replicated on the RBCD layer. The recent Zander Bruckner 5 on Telarc (Bruckner: Symphony No. 5 - Zander) might have been an ideal candidate. The lecture, currently contained on a second RBCD disc, might have been included on an extra SACD-only track. I know RBCD fanatics would feel cheated, but it would highlight the expanded capacity available on the SACD-layer, and provide a "bonus" for the afficianado. Thoughts?

Post by DSD May 21, 2009 (69 of 90)
mahlerei said:

Well done guys, you've succeeded in alienating bissie. Or perhaps you didn't realise he was one of the good guys?

Oh the irony of it all; Teresa and her myrmidons demanding Tellig & Co be sued for some innocuous comments yet openly accusing Robert (and Mr Wetmore) of being liars and cheats.

You really are a miserable bunch and you should be ashamed of yourselves.

I loved the early BIS from DSD masters but have had much less success with their PCM SACDs and now I know why.

I have sold over 150 SACDs because they sounded like low resolution PCM and almost as bad as CDs! I have now decided to write an article about NOT recommended SACDs. BIS is not the first company to try to pass off low resolution PCM as an audiophile high resolution SACD. And he won't be the last.

But several months ago after my dissatisfaction with many low resolution SACDs, I have decided to only purchase only DSD recorded SACDs.

Sam Tellig will do anything to discredit or destroy SACD, and he has defamed the reputations of everyone making SACD/CD hybrids. He is guilty.

I never said Robert was a cheat, I said PCM resolution should be disclosed as some of us don't like low resolution and it can get expensive selling SACD that do not sound good. My only alternative is to purchase DSD recorded SACDs, which I like the best anyway. Bravo to Telarc, Channel Classics, PentaTone and the newest Chandos SACDs for recording DSD!!!

Post by canonical May 21, 2009 (70 of 90)
tream said:

If there were - pick a number - say 100 super long play SACD only releases from BIS and other labels, mining the back catalogs, would this be something that would help the SACD cause?

I know this question is addressed to Robert. But perhaps I can quickly give my own view ... :

In order for the SACD to have a a super-long playing time:

1. On the Super Audio layer, you have to cut out surround-sound and use all the space for SACD stereo.
2. The CD layer obviously cannot be used, because it can only hold CD length music (70 minutes).

So, we end up with a single-layer stereo-only disc.

Single-layer discs are a retailing disaster because they cause confusion. They destroy the backward/forward compatibility argument of the SACD format. They cause nightmares for retailers when people with standard players buy them by mistake, and then want to return them after opening. Amazon is full of people leaving nasty and inappropriate reviews (1 stars for brilliant Sony single-layer SACDs) because they bought the wrong disc, and can't use it on their CD player.

Finally, if it is super-long playing time that you seek ... or storage ... well ... downloads don't have any intrinsic limitation on how many tracks / pieces can be batched into 1 purchase. Buy Mozart's complete output on Brilliant for $3. Why not? That's what I would pay for it. And anyway formats like Blu-ray can hold more content (about 25 gig) than SACD (about 5 gig) . And, in the near future, there will be other CD / DVD style discs that can hold 500 gigs ... who wants that much music on a single disc for playing? ... too difficult to navigate.

Basically - for most music, 70 minutes per disc works pretty well: one idea per disc. Only real exception is operas.

I think the most important marketing idea for SACD is to ensure everything is hybrid ... and single-release. Simplicity and compatibility! FOR THE WIN.

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