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Discussion: Borodin: Symphony No. 2, Prince Igor - RPO/Schmidt

Posts: 27
Page: 1 2 3 next

Post by Allan1us November 18, 2005 (1 of 27)
Here is areview of this performance and recording issued in stereo only on the Regis Label. The review is from Music Web 18/11/05

"This disc was greeted warmly when first issued on the Tring label and critical reception remains pretty much unchanged. As a single CD mixed Borodin anthology in contemporary digital sound and at bargain price this stands at the head of the recommendation list.


The blend of works places the Second Symphony at the core of the collection. Around it are grouped a clutch of orchestral perennials from Prince Igor as well as the dreamy and easygoing tone poem In the Steppes of Central Asia. More than ever this work struck me as a monothematic mirage - a sort of precursor of Ravel's Bolero. Schmidt plays it as an oneiric vision.


His Igor overture is sensational - drawn with great dramatic insight. The roughened brass fanfare crescendos are superbly done. Despite being taken down in a studio environment - CTS studios where Schmidt also recorded his outstanding Sibelius 5 - Schmidt captures the buzz of the opera house. He grasps every opportunity to catch the volatile dervish whirl of this music. That magic can be gleaned from hearing the frenzy of the first Polovtsian Dance as well as the beguiling motion and languor of the famous 'Stranger in Paradise' tune. Woodwind solos flare and flame suggesting the undomesticated exoticism of the Polovtsi palanquins. Menace is to be found in these scores as the rather repetitive March shows with its passing reminiscences of Mussorgsky's Unhatched Chicks.


The Second Symphony bears out all the same fine audio-technical and interpretative qualities. Schmidt resist the temptation to dawdle. His first movement proceeds at a cracking pace without gabble or smudged articulation. Speaking of which this symphony is pretty much of a works' outing for the French Horns who distinguish themselves notably time after time; two examples: discreetly in the second movement's spasms of quiet repeated notes and then in the third movement's cantilena solo.


Schmidt's recorded output is exiguous - more's the pity. His Nielsen symphonies are core recommendations as is his Sibelius 5; and all of these are on Regis. They are all well worth tracking down.


There are various single disc Borodin collections but none as competitive as this which must be a first recommendation. If however you were looking for all three symphonies on one disc go for Tjeknavorian and the National PO on BMG-Sony.


Rob Barnett "

























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Post by Arthur November 18, 2005 (2 of 27)
I was sceptical about these RPO releases based on the multi-miking comments I'd read here, but decided to but this disc (and a couple of others) based on the positive reviews it has gotten (and the cheap price).
Boy was I in for a disappointment. Though the Schmidt is a good performance, the sound is terrible--among the worst I've ever heard on Super Audio. I usually don't comment on the discs I don't like (I'm trying to help the format by turning people on to the winners I've heard!), but in view of this blatant attempt to push the product with a professional review, I'll break my rule: the brass has that kind of Russian blare that I like, but it is just loud and sort of placed centrally in the middle of everything else. There is no sense that they are in the rear of an orchestra, no space, no perspective. Worse, the lower winds and strings are simply a distorted blur if they do not have a melody; they're just an out-of-focus buzz until they have the melody or a solo, then they leap into focus. This is the kind of disappointing recording I no longer tolerate on CD. Super Audio does not help in this case.

Post by Jonty November 19, 2005 (3 of 27)
Arthur said:

I was sceptical about these RPO releases based on the multi-miking comments I'd read here, but decided to but this disc (and a couple of others) based on the positive reviews it has gotten (and the cheap price).
Boy was I in for a disappointment. Though the Schmidt is a good performance, the sound is terrible--among the worst I've ever heard on Super Audio. I usually don't comment on the discs I don't like (I'm trying to help the format by turning people on to the winners I've heard!), but in view of this blatant attempt to push the product with a professional review, I'll break my rule: the brass has that kind of Russian blare that I like, but it is just loud and sort of placed centrally in the middle of everything else. There is no sense that they are in the rear of an orchestra, no space, no perspective. Worse, the lower winds and strings are simply a distorted blur if they do not have a melody; they're just an out-of-focus buzz until they have the melody or a solo, then they leap into focus. This is the kind of disappointing recording I no longer tolerate on CD. Super Audio does not help in this case.

I do think we should be realistic about the Membran releases. They were originally made for Tring in the mid 1990s and issued at less than £5 probably in an attempt to rival Naxos. The engineering was always bright and meant to sound impressive on cheap equipment rather like Phase Four did in the 60s. Now they are offered at between 5 euros (£3.40) to £11. Like all labels they vary, some are better than others. Membran is cashing in on the SACD market by using these old 32bit recordings (refer to an earlier thread for details). If I pay 5 euros for a disc, less than a cup of coffee and a muffin in Starbucks, then I don't expect every thing to be wonderful.

As to the Borodin disc I stand by my comments that these are very good performances and the recording is above average for the series. If you want bright strings just listen to Handley's recording of Holst's St. Paul's Suite! On my equipment, (and the new Staphan Audioart Equinox lead has improved things greatly), I don't hear the brass all centralised at all. The horns are clearly to the left and trumpets to the right. The heavy brass is from centre to right with the percussion placed at centre. The the lower strings seem to me adequately defined all the time. One thing I would say is that the whole orchetsra is set well back in a fairly reverberant space which may explain a feeling of lack of definition on some equipment. This all refers to the stereo and not the mulit-channel version.

Having checked the Schmidt I put on Tjekanvorian and Martinon. The Tjeknavorian sounds like a small string band miked to sound bigger which is what it is with high level mastering. The Martinon now sounds long in the tooth. Although a more sympathetic mastering may help there were better Decca recordings.

Post by Castor November 19, 2005 (4 of 27)
Arthur said:

I was sceptical about these RPO releases based on the multi-miking comments I'd read here, but decided to but this disc (and a couple of others) based on the positive reviews it has gotten (and the cheap price).
Boy was I in for a disappointment. Though the Schmidt is a good performance, the sound is terrible--among the worst I've ever heard on Super Audio. I usually don't comment on the discs I don't like (I'm trying to help the format by turning people on to the winners I've heard!), but in view of this blatant attempt to push the product with a professional review, I'll break my rule: the brass has that kind of Russian blare that I like, but it is just loud and sort of placed centrally in the middle of everything else. There is no sense that they are in the rear of an orchestra, no space, no perspective. Worse, the lower winds and strings are simply a distorted blur if they do not have a melody; they're just an out-of-focus buzz until they have the melody or a solo, then they leap into focus. This is the kind of disappointing recording I no longer tolerate on CD. Super Audio does not help in this case.

Hi Arthur,
Your findings about this recording echo mine exactly. No problems with the performances, only the sound.

I also would like to know why Alan1us keeps copying and posting reviews from Classics Today.

I posted a very unfavourable review of the Membran/RPO/Schmidt Sibelius 5, finding its sound to be as you describe for the Borodin. Allan1us has added a copy of a Music Web review to that one as well.

Post by Claude November 19, 2005 (5 of 27)
Castor said:

I also would like to know why Alan1us keeps copying and posting reviews from Classics Today.

Well, he posts them in the forum, so no problem with that. Posting just a link would be better than copying/pasting though.

I have more difficulties with his ratings on sound quality. He gives 4.5 stars to all the Membran SACDs he has reviewed:

Allan1us

I have heard the Membran 2SACD sampler (in stereo only) and don't agree at all with such a rating. If an recording that is acceptable at best deserves 4.5 stars, what about the best recordings? Are less than 4 stars only for discs that are unlistenable?

I've seen the same tendency with other reviewers, for example a 5 star (sound) review for a Louis Armstrong album of 1954. Though this SACD is probably the best version of this recording (I have it too), does it sound as good as a modern DSD recording? Of course not. I my view the rating should be on the absolute sound quality, not on the quality of the transfer.

Louis Armstrong: Plays W. C. Handy

Sorry for this offtopic rant :-)

Post by Castor November 19, 2005 (6 of 27)
Claude said:

Well, he posts them in the forum, so no problem with that. Posting just a link would be better than copying/pasting though.

I have more difficulties with his ratings on sound quality. He gives 4.5 stars to all the Membran SACDs he has reviewed:

No, he doesn't. The review of the Sibelius from Music Web is given in the review section.

I agree that very few of the Membran SACDs deserve 4.5 stars but, like all views given here, it depends on what you are comparing them to.

Post by Allan1us November 21, 2005 (7 of 27)
Claude is not correct to say that I give all Membran releases 4.5 stars for sound.

I gave the Glover/Mozart 40 + 41 3 stars as did Brenda which is one less than Daland. I gave Carmina Burana 5 stars as did Raffells.

I would normally wish to reserve 5 stars for the very best sound such as the EMI Tristan or the Rasmussen on Da Capo recently, but as Jonty pointed out, what sounded poor on another correspondent’s equipment sounds fine on his - as it did on mine.

I am lucky enough to have some fairly up to date and fairly good equipment in a large enough space to be able to have it set out properly in accordance with the requirements for surround sound music rather than home cinema.

I was looking for a surround sound version of Sibelius 5 and thought that Schmidt’s version would normally be pretty good. Alas Castor’s review really put me off describing the performance as routine, pedestrian etc. Well, having been put off by Castor I saw the review in Music Web by someone who sounds quite experienced and expert. He has quite a different idea from Castor of both the performance and the recording (in so far as the Regis stereo release must be basically the same recoding as the Membran).

Any way I’ve got it on order and will let you know what I think in due course.

I have just put in a big order with an advertiser on this site and when the Membran discs arrive they will have cost me £3-99 including delivery charges. That is cheaper than a Naxos stereo disc, and at that price it doesn’t matter if there are a few duds in the bunch.

Another thing I like about the Membran discs is that the artists are not necessarily big stars – as Jonty also pointed out re the Beethoven Piano Concertos 2 + 3 its not always the starry names who give the longest lasting pleasure.

I don’t see any legitimate reason not to cut and paste provided that the origins are made clear.

Post by Windsurfer November 21, 2005 (8 of 27)
Allan1us said:

Claude is not correct to say that I give all Membran releases 4.5 stars for sound.

I gave the Glover/Mozart 40 + 41 3 stars as did Brenda which is one less than Daland. I gave Carmina Burana 5 stars as did Raffells.

I would normally wish to reserve 5 stars for the very best sound such as the EMI Tristan or the Rasmussen on Da Capo recently, but as Jonty pointed out, what sounded poor on another correspondent’s equipment sounds fine on his - as it did on mine.

I am lucky enough to have some fairly up to date and fairly good equipment in a large enough space to be able to have it set out properly in accordance with the requirements for surround sound music rather than home cinema.

I was looking for a surround sound version of Sibelius 5 and thought that Schmidt’s version would normally be pretty good. Alas Castor’s review really put me off describing the performance as routine, pedestrian etc. Well, having been put off by Castor I saw the review in Music Web by someone who sounds quite experienced and expert. He has quite a different idea from Castor of both the performance and the recording (in so far as the Regis stereo release must be basically the same recoding as the Membran).

Any way I’ve got it on order and will let you know what I think in due course.

I have just put in a big order with an advertiser on this site and when the Membran discs arrive they will have cost me £3-99 including delivery charges. That is cheaper than a Naxos stereo disc, and at that price it doesn’t matter if there are a few duds in the bunch.

Another thing I like about the Membran discs is that the artists are not necessarily big stars – as Jonty also pointed out re the Beethoven Piano Concertos 2 + 3 its not always the starry names who give the longest lasting pleasure.

I don’t see any legitimate reason not to cut and paste provided that the origins are made clear.

I wonder why Allan1us does not find the treble in this disc disturbingly shrill. I am listening in stereo and the system is quite nice with, say the new Pentatone discs of Julia Fischer playing unaccompanied Bach and Mozart concertos. Also with the Pentatone Britten/Hartmann/Bartok disc. I got (finally) the Praga Brahms sonatas with Csaba and it is rich and wonderful sounding. The Pentatone Ruslan and Ludmilla complete opera is also rich and beautiful sounding. The Membran Borodin, I gave 1.5 stars to because of the shrill unpleasant treble. I admitted that the recording was clear and sharply focused. What I want to know is if the Borodin is the exception or the rule: Are all Membran releases so shrill? Based on my experience, Allan is too generous with the stars. On the other hand he is listening in multi-channel and often multi-channel mixes of the same recording are sweeter than the stereo.

Post by ramesh November 21, 2005 (9 of 27)
Allan1us said:


I would normally wish to reserve 5 stars for the very best sound such as the EMI Tristan or the Rasmussen on Da Capo recently, but as Jonty pointed out, what sounded poor on another correspondent’s equipment sounds fine on his - as it did on mine.

I am lucky enough to have some fairly up to date and fairly good equipment in a large enough space to be able to have it set out properly in accordance with the requirements for surround sound music rather than home cinema.

Rather off topic for Borodin, as being in the steps of Domingo's Tristan rather than the steppes of Central Asia, but I found it interesting you rated the EMI Tristan this highly.
It is a good recording for CD, but on my system I found all the usual artefacts of CD sound still apparent, especially a peculiar 'deadness' in the upper frequencies. I've found this especially noticable on EMI recordings, hence I've very few EMI CDs recorded within the last ten years. It does sound better than Rattle's BPO Mahler 5 on CD, but it makes me guess the Tristan was recorded at a 48 kHz resolution like the Mahler. The DTS disc, when downmixed to stereo gave more air, though with a loss of detailing and imaging.
When I played the Tristan prelude to act 3 from the 1961 Stokowski recording on the recent RCA SACD, I was amazed at the richness of the sound. Even playing this on my CD player, comparing it to the Act3 on the Domingo Tristan, I preferred the 40+ year older recording.
Has anyone else compared these two excerpts?

Post by Jonty November 22, 2005 (10 of 27)
ramesh said:

Rather off topic for Borodin, as being in the steps of Domingo's Tristan rather than the steppes of Central Asia, but I found it interesting you rated the EMI Tristan this highly.
It is a good recording for CD, but on my system I found all the usual artefacts of CD sound still apparent, especially a peculiar 'deadness' in the upper frequencies. I've found this especially noticable on EMI recordings, hence I've very few EMI CDs recorded within the last ten years. It does sound better than Rattle's BPO Mahler 5 on CD, but it makes me guess the Tristan was recorded at a 48 kHz resolution like the Mahler. The DTS disc, when downmixed to stereo gave more air, though with a loss of detailing and imaging.
When I played the Tristan prelude to act 3 from the 1961 Stokowski recording on the recent RCA SACD, I was amazed at the richness of the sound. Even playing this on my CD player, comparing it to the Act3 on the Domingo Tristan, I preferred the 40+ year older recording.
Has anyone else compared these two excerpts?

I adore the Stokowski but it isn't really realistic is it? Unless he had 50 double basses.The Pappano does sound like an orchestra playing in Abbey Road studio 1 even if it is heavily miked. The EMI sounds more real to me.

Barenboim/Teldec has the advantage of the Berlin Philharmonic but solo winds are spotlighted and for me there is too much reverberation over the whole sound. Furtwangler/EMI well balanced Legge produced mono sound but the performance of this prelude now strikes me as too fast. Paray/Mercury has "rich" closely viewed sound as we would expect from Mercury but a rather plain performance. For me the suprise of these comparisons was that I found Goodall/Decca to be incredibly moving. I had not thought this recording to be on the same level as his Ring but I will now have to listen to the whole thing. The Decca recording is nothing special. I learnt my Wagner attending Goodall's performances in the 70's and early 80's and may be it is that I have not listened to this performance for some years but I seem to have fallen under his spell again.

Along way from Borodin!

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