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Discussion: Mahler: Symphony No. 2 - Zander

Posts: 47
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Post by rammiepie March 4, 2015 (31 of 47)
Ubertrout said:

It's amazing how people on this forum get nasty so quickly. I'm not looking for an excuse to use surround channels, I'm looking to reproduce the experience in the concert hall as much as possible.

Anyhow, the score calls for offstage trumpets and horns, and also offstage percussion, bass drum and triangle. I've heard the piece live numerous times, and I particularly recall the NY Philharmonic placing these instruments not in the wings flanking the orchestra but at the rear of the hall, and the effect being particularly dramatic.

I'm not the first person in this forum to ask about recordings using the surround channels for the offstage instruments in this piece, and I think the rationale for doing so is particularly apparent.

A BIG +1 Ubertrout.

For those who 'pretend' to be in a concert hall when listening to 5.1 at home, congratulations.

If you prefer the sound of air.......er, ambience......all the more power.

I, myself, prefer Tacet, 2L and MDG's approach. We're not in a concert hall, we're at home and 'tastefully' utilizing the surrounds and taking full advantage of our investment by utilizing ALL of our speakers is much more tantamount to the actual experience in the absence of actually being there.

Perhaps a reason why the Best engineered surround Grammy award went to 2L's Distant Galaxy and not to The Zander Mahler which basically "chickened" out by failing to utilize the rears, as called for, in the original scoring of the piece.

For a wonderful example of Mahler done right (recording wise) look no further Mahler: Symphony No. 8 - Wit A simply thrilling multichannel experience with a wonderful performance to match. If it's air, er, ambience, you want OPEN THE WINDOW!

Post by fausto K March 4, 2015 (32 of 47)
rammiepie said:

A BIG +1 Ubertrout.

For those who 'pretend' to be in a concert hall when listening to 5.1 at home, congratulations.

If you prefer the sound of air.......er, ambience......all the more power.

I, myself, prefer Tacet, 2L and MDG's approach. We're not in a concert hall, we're at home and 'tastefully' utilizing the surrounds and taking full advantage of our investment by utilizing ALL of our speakers is much more tantamount to the actual experience in the absence of actually being there.

Perhaps a reason why the Best engineered surround Grammy award went to 2L's Distant Galaxy and not to The Zander Mahler which basically "chickened" out by failing to utilize the rears, as called for, in the original scoring of the piece.

For a wonderful example of Mahler done right (recording wise) look no further Mahler: Symphony No. 8 - Wit A simply thrilling multichannel experience with a wonderful performance to match. If it's air, er, ambience, you want OPEN THE WINDOW!

rammiepie, just a question, have you actually heard the Zander?

Post by rammiepie March 4, 2015 (33 of 47)
fausto K said:

rammiepie, just a question, have you actually heard the Zander?

I've had it for a week and have played it on my secondary system (as background). Will give it a serious listen tonight on my main system.

But I stand firm on my assessment of use of the surrounds. Judiciously used across ALL genres of music (why pick and choose), I think it enhances the HOME experience.

Post by fausto K March 4, 2015 (34 of 47)
rammiepie said:

I've had it for a week and have played it on my secondary system (as background). Will give it a serious listen tonight on my main system.

But I stand firm on my assessment of use of the surrounds. Judiciously used across ALL genres of music (why pick and choose), I think it enhances the HOME experience.

I'm curious to your findings. The one reviewer here thinks it's terrible in MC. Can't judge of course, but in stereo, in my opinion, this disc exceeds any modern recording of M2, including the much lauded Mahler: Symphony No. 2 - Fischer, soundwise (and perhaps also qua performance)

Post by windhoek March 4, 2015 (35 of 47)
krisjan said:

Hey there Chris - no "aspersions on rear speakers" intended - I actually have rear speakers in my set-up (just not conventional multi-channel). Rather, the aspersions are cast towards those who demand to hear stuff in the rear speakers that is not supposed to be there. Almost all classical m-ch recordings are done from an audience member's perspective (save for the few that present the conductor's perspective like the Nott Mahler and many of the Aix label recordings) and, as a result, the rear channels carry hall ambiance.

I will never understand why people want m-ch releases of pop/rock recordings since most of that stuff was never intended to be released in some weird, ear candy mix with instruments distributed all around. But if it floats someone's boat, then I say "have fun!".

As someone with a penchant for philosophy, David Hume's maxim, 'You can't get ought from is' springs to mind. Although his context concerned morality, the principle is transferable and so, just because most classical m/c releases haven't been discrete ala discrete rock/pop m/c releases doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't be similarly discrete.

Indeed, the same goes for rock/pop; even if an album was recorded in mono or stereo, it doesn't mean we shouldn't augment the channel numbers.

The way a thing is or has been has no legitimate bearing on how a thing could or should be.

Post by krisjan March 5, 2015 (36 of 47)
My oh my - what a kerfuffle! Methinks there is a lot of thin skin out there. If you want the conductor whispering sweet nothings in your ear from the surrounds, go for it! Or the left tom-tom in the left rear and the right tom-tom in the right rear during Whole Lotta Love, have at it. I am not denigrating your desire to hear such things if you want them. It's just not for me. David Hume need not be invoked.

And yes, when I listen at home, I expect my system to transport me to the venue. You don't have the same goal? OK by me. Invoking another "philosopher" - "Why can't we all just get along?" - R. King

Post by windhoek March 5, 2015 (37 of 47)
krisjan said:

My oh my - what a kerfuffle! Methinks there is a lot of thin skin out there. If you want the conductor whispering sweet nothings in your ear from the surrounds, go for it! Or the left tom-tom in the left rear and the right tom-tom in the right rear during Whole Lotta Love, have at it. I am not denigrating your desire to hear such things if you want them. It's just not for me. David Hume need not be invoked.

And yes, when I listen at home, I expect my system to transport me to the venue. You don't have the same goal? OK by me. Invoking another "philosopher" - "Why can't we all just get along?" - R. King

I'd like to hear a daring discrete classical m/c mix, but they don't seem to make them and although I would have been surprised if Zander's was, I thought it might have took some small steps in that direction, hence the Grammy Nomination. I'm not too fussy about imagining myself at a venue. All I want to do is enjoy the music and play my air baton when it get lively or be on the cusp of tears when things are too emotive for example, that's all.

Having different preferences has nothing to do with getting long; I'm happy to have my preferences and get along with everybody else. One of my friends has what I consider to be awful taste in music (cheesy female voxpop fwiw), but my affection for her remains :)

Post by rosenkavalier817 March 5, 2015 (38 of 47)
fausto K said:

I'm curious to your findings. The one reviewer here thinks it's terrible in MC. Can't judge of course, but in stereo, in my opinion, this disc exceeds any modern recording of M2, including the much lauded Mahler: Symphony No. 2 - Fischer, soundwise (and perhaps also qua performance)

I was not a fan of the MC sound when I reviewed the recording last year, but am curious to go back and check again.

Post by Euell Neverno March 5, 2015 (39 of 47)
rosenkavalier817 said:

I was not a fan of the MC sound when I reviewed the recording last year, but am curious to go back and check again.

Oh, thank goodness! Those of us who listen in stereo need not worry about such trifles.

Post by windhoek March 5, 2015 (40 of 47)
Euell Neverno said:

Oh, thank goodness! Those of us who listen in stereo need not worry about such trifles.

Couldn't have said it better :)

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